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Problem in the Hub? Cassette?
#1
Schwinn Cruiser Six circa 1999. Shimano grip shift. One front chain wheel. Looks like an old schwinn typhoon or 60's-70's cruiser, just with twist grip shifting & front and rear brake levers (no coaster brake). The derailleur says SIS and is suspended from a hanger. 26x2.125 tires, you get the idea.

So I make the two rights to get to my door and I notice a subtle little high pitched rubbing sound as I make them. I'm thinking perhaps a brake is adjusted too close but no, it's the tire kissing the fender where it's a close fit, next to the chain. I grab the tire & rock it side to side and I get play, a little chunk-a-chunk. Feels kind of like what you'd get if you didn't have the cones tight enough in your front hub. I also notice that the smallest sprocket looks awfully close to the right frame area.

I remove the rear wheel & find that if I move the axle I can feel that click-click play, but then I notice that the entire group of sprockets or the cassette (or whatever you call those cogs when they're all together) has that play in it too! I can grab them and visibly rock the assembly.

The bike had a full overhaul in 2006, so it's not a neglected beast.

So what the heck has happened? It's almost like the axle & gears weren't tightened up enough before being put back together, but the problem developed suddenly today. I don't have the tool to take the gears off & the freewheel apart to take a look see, so I'm at the mercy of the LBS.

Any ideas you might have would be appreciated, so I don't go in totally blind to the bike shop.
Thanks for your help.
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#2
my best guess without a video to look at is that you have a broken hub.

If it was just the axle moving back and forth, 1st guess would be the cones. But as the freewheel (you have a freewheel not a cassette) moves relative the wheel; it sounds like the hub is broken. Freewheels get tighter as you ride, so it doesn't matter how loose (within limits) that they were installed, they will tighten up in the first few hundred yards, and full tighten on the first hill you climb.

I suggest you undo the cones, and then I except that you'll find that the axle is holding the two halves of the hub together.

See this thread for some pretty nasty pictures:
http://forums.bicycletutor.com/thread-2509.html

kwstasmbk also has a freewheel, not a cassette.

Now you have a decision to make - is the bike worth getting a new rear wheel, and possibly freewheel for? Here are some low priced examples:
http://www.amazon.com/Avenir-Nutted-Cruiser-Freewheel-1-75-Inch/dp/B003RLL5VM/ref=sr_1_2?s=cycling&ie=UTF8&qid=1305967696&sr=1-2
http://www.amazon.com/Shimano-Tourney-7Spd-14-28T-Freewheel/dp/B003B8JYPU/ref=sr_1_1?s=cycling&ie=UTF8&qid=1305967832&sr=1-1

The wheel above will need to be tensioned, trued and stress relieved.

It may be possible to salvage your freewheel with the proper tools.
Nigel
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#3
I took the axle out, looked at the left side bearings, not great, but not pitted or oblong. The races looked OK, not great, not awful. Very little grease, the bearings were moist, lets put it that way.

I went to LBS, they charged $5 to loosen the freewheel. He said that the slop I was noticing in the freewheel to hub fit is typical but on the large side. He said he has seen new Shimano MF-HG22 6 speed freewheels almost this bad when new, said that the quality control has gone down on that new part and that it has frustrated him in the past.

With the freewheel removed I see nothing broken! The piece I could see down past the axle was a bearing dust cover, not a broken chunk-o-hub.

So I suddenly developed play in the wheel bearings that requires adjustment AND notice slop (clack-clack as you wiggle it)in the freewheel, at the same time . Hmmmmmm.

This all happened after I noticed two abrupt chain throwing incidents when shifting from 3rd to 4th downhill at a brisk pace. The second time it threw the chain it was a pain to get it unraveled, it really clumped up. It was riding home after this that I first noticed the wheel & freewheel slop. I also noticed that 1st gear didn't sound like its normall smooth self, sounded like an old friction shift that needed just a little tuning to quiet the gears.

It will shift in to any gear without throwing the chain or protesting if done at a slow cadence, just not when your pedaling like crazy. 1st through 3rd are good no matter what.

What a pain. I guess I can lube, reassemble and ride it for a few days to see if the wheel is OK and doesn't have some kind of super wierd problem, then replace the freewheel & hope the new one has less slop in it?
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#4
Very fortunate. Smile

I have also had some issues with a Shimano 14-28T freewheel, and have had good luck with a Sunrace 13-28T.

I would consider changing to a 7 speed freewheel, new shifter required, and a TX51 derailleur; not much more than just the freewheel.
Nigel
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#5
It's my cousins bike, I'd be too chicken to risk his wrath, I'm going to be his best man. Is that Sunrace 13-28T a six speed freewheel that will fit, or the 7 speed you were thinking about as an upgrade? nfmisso, check your PMs please.
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#6
7 speed. There are not many 6 speeds available any more.

Besides Amazon, check CrossLake Sales on ebay. I have purchased quite a bit of stuff from them, and they may have some six speed freewheels.
Nigel
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#7
quote-It will shift in to any gear without throwing the chain or protesting if done at a slow cadence, just not when your pedaling like crazy

i think you found your problem. kinda like a car, you can shift it that way, but it wears components out much faster, if it doesn't destroy them during a shift. sorry, im having a hard time finding the right way to describe things this morning.
Get on your bad pedalscooter and ride!
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#8
Yeah, that Freewheel wobble or play, is what I am hoping is the culprit with the shifting. If you shift normally from 3rd to 4th while you're going fast you're 50/50 going to throw a chain. If you're really moving it's 90%. I'm gonna replace the freewheel and look for improvement. It's $20 to find out.

Then I'm going to contact a guru like nfmisso and take the old Shimano MF HG-22 freewheel apart & see it ther's a way to add balls to the bearing(s) & avoid the problem re-occuring with time in the new freewheel. Hey, in five or ten years we may not be able to get new freewheels.

At least I started off my morning nicely by finding a broken spoke (right at the hub) in the front wheel!
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#9
(05-22-2011, 06:40 PM)1FJEF Wrote:  ........
At least I started off my morning nicely by finding a broken spoke (right at the hub) in the front wheel!

where there is one, there will be another.....

spokes fail due to fatigue, which is caused by too low tension. in the not too distant future, all the spokes in that wheel will fail, one by one.

Get a spoke wrench, and a full set of Wheelsmith SS14 spokes of the correct length, loosen all of the existing spokes two full turns, replace them one by one, and true it up as best you can. If you cannot get it good enough, take it to the LBS for final truing.

Tension, true, stress relieve, true, stress relieve - see videos on this site about wheel building.
Nigel
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#10
I'd be a little gunshy of trying that. Maybe some day, it seems like an art..... I'd be more inclined to try to look inside that freewheel, especially if I had a service manual or talked to someone who'd done it. The LBS said they will not service the innards of any freewheel.

As an aside, I was going to try your marine lube idea (bearing packing), but while dropping off the wheel at another LBS the guy gave me a big tube of the Park Lube they use for $7. The guy was so helpful it felt good to buy something there.
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#11
Guys,
i see you are good mechanics. can you look at my tread "Giant bike cranks after 20 degrees" ? It's in Crancks & Pedals section.
For you my issue may be a joke...
thanks
daniil
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#12
nfmisso, what are you, clairvoyant? The LBS just called every time they replace a spoke, another breaks, they are fatigued (he said they look like they were too long) because they weren't tensioned right in the first place I'll bet. It's a chrome cruiser wheel, so it's cheaper to buy another than spend money on this one.
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#13
(05-23-2011, 07:49 PM)1FJEF Wrote:  nfmisso, what are you, clairvoyant? The LBS just called every time they replace a spoke, another breaks, they are fatigued (he said they look like they were too long) because they weren't tensioned right in the first place I'll bet. It's a chrome cruiser wheel, so it's cheaper to buy another than spend money on this one.

No, just been there, done that; which is why I learned to build and rebuild my own wheels. Being lazy, I build them so they don't break, so that I never have to rebuild them.
Nigel
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#14
Now they can't duplicate the style of the rim if I buy a new wheel. Chrome steel 26x1.75 with braking surfaces (the bike has front & rear Cantilever brakes).
What a pain.
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#15
this one is chrome plated steel
http://www.amazon.com/Wheel-Master-Bicycle-Steel-Silver/dp/B00129ACWO/

alloy rims provide better braking, especially in the wet.

this one is alloy:
http://www.amazon.com/Avenir-Nutted-Cruiser-Freewheel-1-75-Inch/dp/B003RLL5VM/
Nigel
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#16
The problem is that a lot of the chrome steel rims don't have braking surfaces on the sides, (the rims just rolls over to the lip, no flat area for brake pads) and you can't tell much from the pics. He had one in stock & we looked at it and it just didn't have anywhere for the brakes to grab. He said they were made with coaster brakes in mind, and they said they could be used either way but even the LBS said there was no way he would put one on this bike. He's going to call a distributor he knows & have the guy actually go look at some items. If I could just put new spokes on it I would. he would probably charge $45 in spokes & nipples, $25 to lace & $17 to true MINIMUM.
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#17
your LBS charges a lot less to respoke a wheel than any in San Jose - here it is $35- for final truing. It is easy to change out the spokes one by one, get it close, then pay for the final truing.

I get my spokes from eBay, there is a guy in Arizona with a large inventory of Wheelsmith spokes for about $1 for 2; plus shipping. Shipping is the same no matter the quantity.

The chrome steel wheel from Amazon in the link above is for rim brakes.
Nigel
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#18
nfmisso said [color=#0000CD]"I get my spokes from eBay, there is a guy in Arizona with a large inventory of Wheelsmith spokes for about $1 for 2; plus shipping. Shipping is the same no matter the quantity."[/color]

nfmisso, do you think you could get me his contact info? Perhaps I could replace one spoke & nipple at a time, get it sort of close, then take it to LBS for final tension & truing. (maybe you could direct me to some tips on that "tensioned, trued and stress relieved" statement I see you make a lot about wheels. I'd like to do as much as possible before going to the LBS
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#19
Well, the (in my opinion) best resource on wheelbuilding is Roger Musson's book (wheelpro.co.uk). It is inexpensive and covers every aspect of wheelbuilding. Replacing a spoke at a time is a good idea, you should get a pretty close to round wheel that way. Wheelbuilding is not difficult, you just need heaps of patience. Also Alex' videos are really helpful, but I prefer "dead trees" (paper).

Oh, and regarding "it is cheaper to buy a new one": Don't. The build of cheap wheels is usually really bad. You'll end up having the same problems again. Unless you true and tension the wheel yourself, which is about where you are now.
Some of the bike shops here in Germany offer hand built wheelsets that are on par with system wheelsets (by Mavic or Fulcrum etc.) and sometimes less expensive (usually the prices don't differ too much...)
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#20
(06-06-2011, 05:33 AM)1FJEF Wrote:  nfmisso said [color=#0000CD]"I get my spokes from eBay, there is a guy in Arizona with a large inventory of Wheelsmith spokes for about $1 for 2; plus shipping. Shipping is the same no matter the quantity."[/color]

nfmisso, do you think you could get me his contact info? .......

http://shop.ebay.com/velowheels/m.html?_trksid=p4340.l2562

Here is the guy; there are other dealers, some have better deals if they are offering what you need. For me velowheels has been the best match for my needs at the time.
Nigel
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