Bicycle Tutor

Hello all,

I'm just about to start restoring a 1973 Gitain Gaves Tandem, and have started a blog do document my progress, but, most importantly, to coalesce my inevitably huge number of questions for the tandeming community into one location.

http://gitaingaves.blogspot.co.uk/

I would be eternally grateful if anybody here had time to read the whole thing (it ended up longer than I meant it to...), and hopefully put in a few useful comments?

Thank you!

Will

First comment without reading your blog (I will) you have a fine specimen of a bike! . Now to read your. Blog and I will get back to this. Nigel will love this one .

(Aug 30, 2012 05:19 AM)Bill Wrote:  Nigel will love this one .

I feel like I ought to ask who Nigel is?!

I look forward to your musings...

Hi I did get to scan over your blog and find it very well written!! . Your plans seem very sound and intelligent. I must say that is one of the most organized restore logs I have ever read. Please do not be offended as I only have had time to as stated above scan over it. Had to work today and I am really tired.
Nigel is a Tandem Restorer here like yourself, and has had many tandem restorations documented here.... http://forums.bicycletutor.com/forum-36.html . Great person, actually everyone here is great!

Hi Will;

I am Nigel.

Bill is over stating things a bit - Bill is a great person too

I have done a Trek T50, and currently have a Jack Taylor frame that I am figuring out what to do. I am not a strict restorer, I adapt things to suit me. Painkiller is strict preservationist; I am not.

I am also not familiar with responding to blogs - so I will put my responses here.

1. bars - choose what is comfortable for you. Our T50 has flat bars, but the JT will have drops. I find the I like a bit wider bar on the tandems than on solo bikes.

2. BB's - you really need to find out what you have. See: http://sheldonbrown.com/velos.html then decide how to handle it.

3. cross over versus same side. If you need a triple, it is will be a bit difficult to go with same side. The T50 is cross over, with 26-44-54 chain rings and (currently) 12-30 7 speed cassette. A 11-34 9 speed cassette (and new rear hub, SRAM X9 derailleur and shiffter are part of the plan) has been acquired. The JT is planned to have a single sided driver with 39-53 rings, with the ring for the connecting chains on the outside. Primarly reason: cost. I am planning on modifying Shimano A050 crank sets, and using Shimano UN55 BBs.

Why do you want to replace the cranks that you have? The only reason I am purchasing cranks for the JT is that I acquired just the frame, fork, headset and eccentric. The T50, I got the 26T ring for an incredibly low price on e-bay to replace the 28T orginal ring and the 44T was damaged during our vacation this year; the 54T ring was on it when we bought the T50. ebay and amazon are good sources for replacement rings.

4. brakes - T50 has cantis - scary, now has Avid SD5 V-brakes - very powerful, to the point of two wheel skids are possible even on high traction surfaces. Mini-V's do not have enough clearance for fenders in most applications. Another option is dual pivot side pulls, such as Tektro R536 and R556/559. Very powerful, and standard lever pull. The T50 has Tektro Eclipse levers which can be set up for short or long cable travel (flat bars). The JT will have Microshift 9 speed STI style brifters with 'cross levers http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0090X36Y0/ref=pd_sbs_sg_2 and travel agents.

5. drag brake - the Karasawa has been discussed here: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/780817-drum-brake-saga-the-final-episode
drag brakes are only need for descents where your rims might get dangerously hot due to long braking periods and high speeds. Other mitigation includes braking very hard for a short period to really drop your speed down very low, then releasing the brakes allowing speed to build up and rims to cool; or using only one brake, then they other - alternating giving time for each rim to cool. Another strategy is to spray water on the rims like the racing Jaguar XJ12C did - but that is a heavy alternative. My magnetic velocity brake is a ways off still.

6. Shimano hubs are very good. Is your O.L.D. 145mm - probably not. Then you have the choice of narrowing the hub or widening the frame. Both of our tandems are 140mm OLD. For the T50; I am planning on narrowing a Shimano hub (got a great deal on ebay for a Handspun wheel which has shipped but not arrived). For the JT, I am not going to have a drag brake, and am going with:http://www.amazon.com/Wheel-Master-Alloy-Tandem-Rear/dp/B004MEWSNW/ref=wl_it_dp_o_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=UTY71LGEXJUA&coliid=I1LT7UDYIWR4MA
see also: http://forums.bicycletutor.com/thread-4272.html

Hi Will;

I forgot to address rims.

Velocity Dyad is considered to be one of the best, if the best tandem rim.

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/tourtand.asp

The T50 has Titan Matrix rims which have had no problems for us. The wheel that has shipped has a Dyad rim. I am planning of using Sun CR-18 rims on the JT.

hello pargetter, are we a golfer?
Nice bike you have there, I gave your blog a quick look see and the bike looks fairly complete. I would say if it ain't broke don't fix it. but you still got to have a plan. on a project like this I start by taking the whole bike apart, inspecting and polishing every part piece by piece. The tandem market is a tough one. If the bike was pristine paint wise it might bring $500 us dollars to the right person. you are not going to finish your project in an equitable fashion as with most restorations. With that said, make the bike a good user that you can enjoy and do not worry about it. If the drivetrain functions, clean and polish the best you can, replace bearings where needed. replace the rim and roll with it. I generally replace tubes,
tires, cables, housing, grips/tape, brake pads and polish the crap out of everything else and they come together nice at the end and function well.
The one thing about doing a tandem that hits hard on the pocket is 2 seats and 2 sets of pedals to buy sometimes. I would take Nigels advice on a proper update/upgrade for this project, keep it sensible and have fun with it
I am not a blogger so look forward to your posts here to your progress. and welcome to the Tutor

Update on the Shimano HF08 rear hub - it is VERY easy to modify to 140mm.

There is a 5mm spacer and some washers on the left side; remove the spacer, shift the axle to the right (cone and cup bearings so easy to do) so that there is an equal amount of axle on each side. The Q/R provided has unusually long thread, there will be some of the shaft sticking out on the right side, but should not be an issue because the derailleur will stick our a lot further.

If you are build a wheel from scratch; all of this is no problem. If starting with a built wheel, the wheel should be re-dished to center the rim between the lock nuts. This is only 2.5mm, and in many cases you can cheat that much with minimal ill effects. Redishing is easy to do on a truing stand - so mine will be redished.

Hi Nigel,

I agree with your Renovation, not Restoration position - The title of this post was written somewhat in error when compared to my plans!

Don't worry about responding here - The original plan was to post in may forums and then hopefully get some comments, all in one place on the blog. As it happens, the whole thing has been much more popular than I imagined, and so I'm glad the replies are all split up into little communities!

So, here are my responses to your responses:

1. We'll be sticking with drops, but certainly going for wider ones than the current set (narrower than my 1980's solo) I'm assuming wider will make the handling a bit more immediate?

2. We're hoping that a dismantle and thorough clean will sort these, but if not the plan is to substitute in a UK threaded eccentric at the front, and a VO french at the back. (This is definitely the threading, I have checked this now)

3. The current plan (always subject to change!) is to keep all the existing cranks, but to change over to cassette at the back, meaning I can pick and choose my gear ratios as I like. This will either be via one of THESE or, the Shimano hub mentioned on the blog, with the Karasawa. I would prefer this, as I think it will be more future-proof. Again, depends on the money.

4. Due to the spacing of the braze-ons, it seems that I'll be sticking with the Mafac Canti's, but, hopefully with new rims, this won't be a problem. We'll be getting bar-end shifters, so hopefully some budget brake levers won't be a problem!

5. I mentioned this in 3.

6. The OLD is 135, so I'll be widening the frame in any case. Do you think it'd be best to widen only by 5mm, and then shrink the hub to fit, (to minimise change to the frame) or is this more trouble than it's worth? Again, in terms of future-proofing, it would be desirable to be 145 OLD. Wheels are likely to be purpose built, so don't worry about that.

Rims: - Thanks for this recommendation - They seem to be reasonably priced, too?

Thanks for your detailed response!!!

Will

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(Sep 2, 2012 03:46 AM)painkiller Wrote:  are we a golfer?

Certainly not that I'm aware of!? What gave you the impression that I might be?

Quote:I would say if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Well, it is broke! (albeit not horrendously)

Quote:start by taking the whole bike apart, inspecting and polishing every part piece by piece.

I plan to do this in the near future, when I've cleared enough space in the garage!

Thanks for your support, I'll keep you posted here, and via the blog as and when things start to happen...

Will

(Sep 5, 2012 03:18 PM)pargeterw Wrote:  .......
1. We'll be sticking with drops, but certainly going for wider ones than the current set (narrower than my 1980's solo) I'm assuming wider will make the handling a bit more immediate?
........
4. Due to the spacing of the braze-ons, it seems that I'll be sticking with the Mafac Canti's, but, .........
......
6. The OLD .......
Rims: - Thanks for this recommendation - They seem to be reasonably priced, too?
......

Hi Will;

1. less muscle ache. The wider bars provide a bit more leverage, which is needed with the heavier, longer bike (compared with a solo).

4. Get Kool Stop Salmon pads. New aluminum rims will help a great deal.

6. I am sticking with 140mm on both of ours. The Shimano hub is easily rebuilt, and with minimal maintenance will be around longer than your grandkids. Depending on your team mass, I would seriously consider staying wtih 135mm, building a slightly beefier 36H rim (for example Alex DM18) with Wheelsmith DH13 (or equivalent spokes). We are a 500+ lbs team, and 40 spokes is my minimum on the tandems. If your team is under 400lbs fully loaded (people and luggage) I would go with the 135mm OLD in your link.

Rims - the CR18 is $20-$35 in the USA depending on size and spoke count - the ISO622 with 48H is actually the cheapest version that I have seen, Niagara has it for $22- The Dyad is in the $50 to $70 depending on size, spoke count, and color. Mavic's equivalents are about the same.

Based on my wheelbuilding experience, I like the Sun CR18 and Alex Adventurer. The Dyad is nicer, but I am a cheap ____ and have to think long about spending the extra money.

(Sep 5, 2012 03:32 PM)nfmisso Wrote:  .

Thanks again!! (this is becoming a theme....)

shooting for "Par" as in par getter Thats why I asked

(Sep 5, 2012 05:48 PM)painkiller Wrote:  shooting for "Par" as in par getter Thats why I asked

Aaaaaahh... That'd account for the misspelling, and indicates a probable mispronunciation too
If you go by my name, I ought to be a decorative plasterer! See HERE

QUICK, EVERYBODY, BACK TO THE BLOG! (there's another post, which you may or may not be interested in...?)

http://gitaingaves.blogspot.co.uk/

Will

(Sep 8, 2012 12:27 PM)pargeterw Wrote:  QUICK, EVERYBODY, BACK TO THE BLOG! (there's another post, which you may or may not be interested in...?)

http://gitaingaves.blogspot.co.uk/

Will

Hi Will;

Blocked in China.....I'll be in HKG the 20th, and returning to the USA on the 21st.

(Sep 8, 2012 02:56 PM)nfmisso Wrote:  ...returning to the USA on the 21st.

Wow, thanks for your commitment! Hopefully there'll be another by then as well...

Hello everyone, (if, indeed anyone is still following this thread?)

There is a third (proper) (and probably final, at least until Christmas) post on the *NEW LOOK BLOG*

Even if you can't be bothered to read, or reply to this new literary masterpiece, you should go and have a look at the new background that I've made, as it took aaaaaaaaaaggggggggggeeeeeeeeeessssssssss and I don't want to feel that the work was wasted. (it was a bit of a dreary theme before, wasn't it?)

Much love to you all, and thank you for supporting me thus far,

Will

Yes - we are still following. Not to worry!
You have done a very fine job of posting the progress of your project with words and pictures!
Christmas is SO far away. Can you hurry it up? Like, maybe, September 22? That is my birthday.

(Sep 16, 2012 07:28 AM)RobAR Wrote:  Yes - we are still following. Not to worry!
You have done a very fine job of posting the progress of your project with words and pictures!
Christmas is SO far away. Can you hurry it up? Like, maybe, September 22? That is my birthday.

If only, if only! Even if I could get the parts ordered etc, my stoker has been in Australia (lucky thing) throughout this whole research stage, and has already returned to Uni herself. She has made me promise not to put it back together without her! (She's a natural engineer, but, living in very central London has never owned bike of her own, so wants to have a bit of a lesson in the maintenance, too I think!)

First Law of Tandem. Never argue with the Stoker.